Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

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Posts by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

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  40

  Uk members ?

  by midnight in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi anyone from the uk ?

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  Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

  Bremen region, Germany, but would love to live in the UK
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  29

  Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

  by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

  genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

  david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

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  Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

  David Jay
  

  Remember, the word "tradition" means "teaching" or "doctine" in a theological context (very different from what Jehovah's Witnesses teach).
  JWs interpret "tradition" to mean that which originates with humans and not God, which of course makes 2 Thessalonians 2:15 unreadable

  I actually was not aware of this.I must say the teachings of the witnesses are still affecting me. I have to do more research to get rid of their influence. It makes sense what you say.
  

  The sources are very numerous as they cover secular and Jewish history, include comments from both the Jewish religion and secular archeology. How would you like to proceed? We are talking thousands and thousands and thousands of years of history.

  Do you know of some good books that address this topic? I do not need to get into all the traditions of the Jews. However, in relation to Biblical topics such as the story of Lot, it can most certainly clarify certain things (on the condition that we can trust these traditions of course).
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  29

  Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

  by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

  genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

  david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

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  Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

  Punkofnice
  Oh well, that's me out of the discussion. I don't believe the Bible is accurate and certainly not the word of god.....god cannot possibly exist.

  1. I don't believe the Bible is accurate and certainly not the word of god

  2. God cannot possibly exist.

  If point 1 is the reason for you to not believe in God, I do not think you have a strong case. Point 1 does not necessarily lead to point 2. Of course God can exist. I understand that people think the Bible is inaccurate and not the Word of God, but that does not solve the question whether God exists or not.

  God can reveal Himself through for instance nature. No Bible involved there.

  You can never be sure that God does not exist. What are your reasons for it?

  
  
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  29

  Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

  by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

  genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

  david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

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  2. 
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  Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

  Drearyweather

  The point you make about Genesis 19:17 is really nice. I think I missed this meaning while reading the chapter.

  For me, it does not matter whether Lot considered them as angels or mere strangers. But he considered their message as God’s command and diligently acted upon it. In fact, some Early Hebrew manuscripts render Genesis 19:18 as "Oh no, Yahweh, please!....", i.e Lot considered them messengers or spokesmen of God.

  I think our discussion comes down to this point. For me, it is vital to know whether Lot and his family were aware of the fact that these men were angels. In my view, if they took this message as a message from men, they could not have been held accountable by God for their actions, since they did not know whether it was a commandment made by God. God is not a God of confusion, He would bring his message as clear as possible. The problem I think, is that it can not be said with certainty how this event really took place.

  I still think this event is unjust and Lot's wife did not deserve to get the punishment that she received, if you compare this to the actions of David. It seems out of proportion to me.
  
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  29

  Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

  by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

  genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

  david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

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  2. 
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  Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

  David Jay

  Very interesting what you say. There is a lot of information in your post, I will have to take more time to do the research. To what extent are the traditions of the Jews trustworthy? You say

  One tradition saying that Lot's wife used the preparation of the pathetic dinner as a reason to beg salt from the neighbors with the real intention of spreading the news of her husband's visitors and thus setting the attack in motion.

  A tradition is not necessarily something to put faith in. What makes you believe the traditions mentioned in your post are true?

  Lot's wife helped to orchestrate group rapes and the murder of visitors to Sodom

  This is a very heavy accusation. Reading the Bible, we do not read any of this.

  Can you perhaps provide me with the sources of the texts and Jewish traditions where you have read this, and describe their trustworthiness?

  Would love to read the Jewish texts.

  Thanks.
  
  
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  29

  Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

  by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

  genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

  david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

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  2. 
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  Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

  Drearyweather

  Thanks for your answer. I can agree with a great part of it.

  You said:

  Any divine command given prior to the Mosaic times constituted as 'law' to those hearing it and incurred capital punishment for non-adherence.

  Reading chapter 19, one can read that the angels only were talking to Lot. Whether Lot's wife heard this cannot be known by the information we receive from this chapter. From verse 10 to 12, the angels in the form of men were only engaged in a conversation with Lot. I understand your point here, but we cannot say with certainty that Lot's wife was hearing the conversation between the men and Lot.

  Moreover, where does the Bible tell that any commandments before the Mosaic Law applied to all those hearing it? The commandments given to Abraham in chapter 17, the Covenant of circumsision, were not heard by any other persons than Abraham. It applied however to the descendants of Abraham (verse 9), which were not there when God made the covenant with Abraham. I am not sure if this point is completely relevant to what you say, but I just had to think of this.

  Furthermore, I would like to point out the difference of the covenant of God with Abraham and the advice of the angels for Lot.

  Genesis chapter 17 begins with this:

  Verse 1: When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him

  
  

  Verse 9: Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant,you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep

  
  It is very clear that Abraham was aware that it was God talking to him, because he appeared to him.

  For the angels that came to Lot, I understand your view that he might have been aware that they were angels. But this is highly doubtful. I am not convinced that Lot was aware of this.

  To make a new point, however unrelated to what you said:

  Genesis 19:16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them.

  First, God is merciful and led Lot and his family safely out of the city, and just moments later, He seems to have changed His mind 180 degrees and kills Lot's wife. What is merciful about that?

  I actually do try to believe that this story has happened the way you describe, but some conclusions cannot be made with the information available to us. I still believe that Lot and his family were not aware that the strangers were in fact angels.

  
  
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  29

  Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

  by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

  genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

  david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

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  2. 
  3. 
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  Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

  tepidpoultry

  I have read it again, I think you are right indeed. This makes it even more bizarre.

  Thanks
• 
  29

  Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

  by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

  genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

  david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

  Tepidpoultry

  PS May I suggest looking into why Yahweh personally slaughtered
  70,000 innocent men after David disobeyed him by taking a census
  1 Chronicles 21
  :0)

  Thank you for this suggestion. I was not yet familiar with that story. I have read it now and at first sight this seems quite injust. When for instance Abraham in Genesis 18 pleads for Sodom, God promises him to not destroy the city if only a few righteous people would be found there.

  It seems highly unlikely to me, that there were zero righteous persons under this 70.000 people.

  It is however necessary to mention, that the 70.000 men were not directly killed by God, but indirectly as a result of a plague. This makes it different from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's wife, where God was the direct cause. Still, it is a horrible event of course.
• 
  29

  Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. David

  by Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  actions and consequences of lot’s wife vs. actions and consequences of david.

  genesis 19 talks about how sodom and gomorrah were destroyed.

  david under any law: yes, under the law of moses crime: adultery and murder consequence: nothing but blessings from god.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

  Actions and consequences of Lot’s wife vs. Actions and consequences of David

  Genesis 19 talks about how Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Lot and his wife and daughters fled. But because Lot’s wife looked back, she died.

  Genesis 19:26
  Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

  In my view, Lot’s wife was under no law. This event happened more than 400 years prior to Moses, when the Law was introduced.

  The following is being said about Abraham, who was the uncle of Lot, so Lot and Abraham lived in around the same era.

  Galatians 3:15-18
  Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[ meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

  First, this brings confusion when reading the following verse:

  Genesis 26:5: Because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws.

  Some argue that these laws refer to the Noahic covenant

  The Noahic covenant [Genesis 8-9] applies to the whole of humankind. In this covenant, God:

  1. God blessed Noah and his sons, and told them to populate the earth [9:1]
  2. Placed all plants and animals under human command [9:2-3]
  3. Forbade the eating meat with the blood still in it [9:4]
  4. Murder was forbidden [9:5]
  5. Humankind were commanded to shed the blood of those who shed blood [9:6]
  6. The Lord promised that he would never again destroy all life on earth by a flood [9:11]
  7. The Lord created the rainbow as the sign of this covenant for all ages to come [9:12-17]

  Still, nowhere is there a law that forbids looking back when fleeing from a city. Lot’s wife did not do anything forbidden according to these laws.

  Others argue that a commandment was given in Genesis 19 itself

  Genesis 19:15-17 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.” When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them. As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!”

  I have problems with this. It is not likely that Lot and his wife were aware that this was being said by an angel.

  In the beginning of the chapter this is being said about the angels:

  Genesis 19:1-2 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

  The fact that Lot called the angels lords does not imply that he thought they were more than just men. Sara also called Abraham her lord (1 Peter 3:6). Furthermore, Hebrews 13:2 says the following:

  Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.

  I think this applies to Lot. So, to say that Lot's wife ignored the commandment in this chapter to me is truly a problem. When for instance Jonah received a commandment from God, it was the Word of God that was speaking to him (Jonah 1:1-2), and he was aware of this. For Moses, it was God Himself that spoke directly to Him.

  But for Lot and his wife and daughters, it was all but clear that this was a message from God. The angels were just two strangers, that appeared to them as men.

  In my opinion, Lot’s wife has been being punished while not having violated any law or commandment from God.

  Like Paul says, in Romans 4:15
  

  And where there is no law there is no transgression.

  Then David.

  2 Samuel 11:2-4: One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roofof the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite.” Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her.

  He was already under the Law of Moses. He violated this by sleeping with Bathsheba, whose husband was Uriah.

  Leviticus 20:10
  "'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

  Then:

  2 Samuel 11:14-15: In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. In it he wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”

  Uriah was now basically murdered because of the orders from David.

  This violated the commandment that one shall not murder (Exodus 20:13)

  What was Gods view on David?

  Acts 13:22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'

  David was a man after God's heart, and was not punished for any of his crimes.

  
  

  To make a short summary

  Lot’s wife
  Under any law?: No
  (Alleged) crime: Looking back
  Consequence: Turned into a pillar of salt, so basically death

  David
  Under any law: Yes, under the Law of Moses
  Crime: Adultery and murder
  Consequence: Nothing but blessings from God

  
  

  How can these two things ever be reconciled with each other?

  I still believe in God and in the Bible as the Word of God, but these stories appear disturbing to me.

  God seems to act here with double standards. How can this ever be?

  Every answer will be appreciated

  Thanks
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  10

  Forever Young

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hey everyone.

  so this is what 10 years out feels like.

  employed, paying bills, and watching the slow demise of planet earth.

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  Yesu Kristo Bwana Wangu

  Interesting story. The part about programming is very true.

  Do you still believe in God?